I think it's time to stop using the words primary care to define what internists and family medicine doctors do.
From a PhD, presumable someone who is highly educated and capable of logical thinking skills. The lack of critical insight into what defines primary care is striking. Here is the comment in its entirety.
First of all, let me say, I have no doubt in my mind that there are good doctors and there are bad doctors. And there are some really, really bad doctors out there. Doctors who have no business practicing medicine.
With that said, I would counter that preferring to pay someone for compassion instead of a medical evaluation is like paying for sex. And that makes you a John. In the appropriate situations, both should be free 100% of the time. If you aren't getting compassion from your family, your friends, your church or your priest, then paying a nurse practitioner $75 because your husband won't listen to you is the same as paying a prostitute $75 for sex because your spouse cut you off.
Compassion is not something I would ever consider paying someone for. And anyone who accepts money just to dish out compassion is no different than the prostitute selling their body.
Before you slam me, this isn't to say that health care workers shouldn't be compassionate. They should be. But to pay someone because they make up in compassion what they lack in clinical evaluation and management skills is simply ludicrous. I would take an apathetic but competent clinical evaluator 100% of the time. I would kindly get my compassion for free from those who aren't being paid to dish it out. Exchanging money for compassion is a denigrating proposition in and of itself. It turns something which should be free of financial interference into nothing more than a service.
You are also sorely mistaken when you believe that inpatient medicine is not "primary care" Primary care is not the doorway you like to believe. It is the house. Primary care's role is not to screen the patient to see what other subspecialists can get involved. The role of the primary care physician is to be the physician that takes care of them. I take care of many patients from start to finish with no subspecialist consultation. What does that make me if not the primary care physician
What you seem to believe is that NPs, in general, have a lower threshold to refer. I would agree with that, in principle. Certainly in practice, variation in referal patterns are influenced heavily by payer mix and volume models. Perhaps what you envision is a system where all patients are shuttled through NPs who siphon off the "easy" patients (by MD standards) and move the more complicated patients on to subspecialists. Patients that many internists could handle without referral.
What you seem to be saying is that it's OK for NPs to have a lower threshold of referral. I'm saying it's not. It's not OK for us to create a medical system where complicated patients are farmed out to multiple subspecialists in a never ending game of pin the tail on the procedure. I am saying that such a model increases costs by increasing FREE=MORE medicine. The role of the primary care "provider" is not to farm out complicated patients. It is to manage complicated patients. If primary care was simply there to be the glorified triage artist, primary care's value is zero. Perhaps this is the model of care you invision, one who's value is zero.
Any model of care that has, as its basic foundation, a provider who's main duty is to consult with others is a model doomed for economic failure, UNLESS, you ration with unfettered impunity, the costs associated with the proceduralization of such a model. If you want a model that uses subspecialists and not internists as the foundation of comprehensive care, be prepared for the most expensive model of care known to man. That which has no boundaries or limitations. Good internists define that boundary for which to work with.
What you seem to be saying is that internists have abandoned their field for highly lucrative procedural fields and therefor the solution is to allow NPs and to take over their role.
This is so completely backwards on so many levels, it's frightening to suggest that the solution to better care is to have providers who have a lower threshold to seek subspecialists who have entered the field because of the lucrative procedures. What NPs cost less on the front end, they loose exponentially on the back end, assuming you believe they have a lower threshold to refer than internists (at least good ones).
The solution is not to replace internists with NPs who have a lower threshold for referral. The solution is a model where fewer referrals are made. Where primary care is not viewed as a front line access to care, but rather the care, in its entirety. Until internists are paid for their time to take care of complicated patients, they themselves have become nothing more than triage artists farming out their patients in a volume mill of economic survival. And in fact bring little value to their role.
As for your assertion that subspecialties are more challenging. Hardly. Here's my experience with community based "more challenging" cases. If a case is really hard or time consuming, they get referred to the academic mecca where the "real experts" in the field get to tackle the latest and greatest case of reallyhardandtimconsumingitis. It is a rare subspecialist in Happy's Hospital who thrives on the interesting case. Rather the bread and butter pays the bills. And the bread and butter procedures pay for thrills.
Your entire thesis as to the appropriate role of "primary care" provider is why those two words need to be abolished from any association with internists and comprehensive care. Primary care is not the doorway to care. It is the care.
From a PhD, presumable someone who is highly educated and capable of logical thinking skills. The lack of critical insight into what defines primary care is striking. Here is the comment in its entirety.
I just thought I'd jump in here with an outsider's opinion. I'm a different kind of "Dr" (PhD in astrophysics). I'm also married to a Nurse Practitioner, to whom I would happily entrust my primary care over most physicians that I know.
While I am well aware that many NPs are not "fully qualified" to be primary care providers, I would submit that neither are many MDs. I would further assert that, from my experience, what many NPs lack in training, they often make up for in diligence and compassion, making them preferable by far as providers than a well-trained but apathetic physician who thinks himself (or herself) superior to the task at hand (not meant to be a blanket condemnation, but rather a description of certain individuals I've encountered).
But that is not the point I wanted to make. It seems to me that much of your argument depends heavily on an erroneous definition of the term primary care. You speak frequently of inpatient primary care, and I would submit that there is no such thing. Once a patient has been admitted to the hospital, they are no longer undergoing primary care. An inpatient is, at the very least, undergoing secondary, if not tertiary, care. As a hospitalist, you are not a primary care physician. By definition, primary care represents the first contact of a patient with the health care system, and one of the most important characteristics of a good primary care provider is knowing when a patient's condition is beyond his/her scope, and it is necessary to refer them on to the second tier of health care.
As a doorway to the health care system, different primary care providers may be able to handle a wider or narrower scope of care, and thus one provider may be comfortable handling patients that another would choose to refer to a specialist. As a rule, I would expect an NP or PA to have a lower threshold of acuity for referring patients than a DO or an MD, and I think that is entirely appropriate. It should be viewed not as a weakness of the practitioner, but rather as a strength in the recognition and acknowledgment of their own limitations.
As MDs have abandoned the field of primary care in favor of more challenging (and lucrative) specialties, mid-level practitioners have moved in to fill the gap that they have left. In doing so, they have provided an efficient and cost-effective alternative, for which they should be applauded, not vilified.
With that said, I would counter that preferring to pay someone for compassion instead of a medical evaluation is like paying for sex. And that makes you a John. In the appropriate situations, both should be free 100% of the time. If you aren't getting compassion from your family, your friends, your church or your priest, then paying a nurse practitioner $75 because your husband won't listen to you is the same as paying a prostitute $75 for sex because your spouse cut you off.
Compassion is not something I would ever consider paying someone for. And anyone who accepts money just to dish out compassion is no different than the prostitute selling their body.
Before you slam me, this isn't to say that health care workers shouldn't be compassionate. They should be. But to pay someone because they make up in compassion what they lack in clinical evaluation and management skills is simply ludicrous. I would take an apathetic but competent clinical evaluator 100% of the time. I would kindly get my compassion for free from those who aren't being paid to dish it out. Exchanging money for compassion is a denigrating proposition in and of itself. It turns something which should be free of financial interference into nothing more than a service.
You are also sorely mistaken when you believe that inpatient medicine is not "primary care" Primary care is not the doorway you like to believe. It is the house. Primary care's role is not to screen the patient to see what other subspecialists can get involved. The role of the primary care physician is to be the physician that takes care of them. I take care of many patients from start to finish with no subspecialist consultation. What does that make me if not the primary care physician
What you seem to believe is that NPs, in general, have a lower threshold to refer. I would agree with that, in principle. Certainly in practice, variation in referal patterns are influenced heavily by payer mix and volume models. Perhaps what you envision is a system where all patients are shuttled through NPs who siphon off the "easy" patients (by MD standards) and move the more complicated patients on to subspecialists. Patients that many internists could handle without referral.
What you seem to be saying is that it's OK for NPs to have a lower threshold of referral. I'm saying it's not. It's not OK for us to create a medical system where complicated patients are farmed out to multiple subspecialists in a never ending game of pin the tail on the procedure. I am saying that such a model increases costs by increasing FREE=MORE medicine. The role of the primary care "provider" is not to farm out complicated patients. It is to manage complicated patients. If primary care was simply there to be the glorified triage artist, primary care's value is zero. Perhaps this is the model of care you invision, one who's value is zero.
Any model of care that has, as its basic foundation, a provider who's main duty is to consult with others is a model doomed for economic failure, UNLESS, you ration with unfettered impunity, the costs associated with the proceduralization of such a model. If you want a model that uses subspecialists and not internists as the foundation of comprehensive care, be prepared for the most expensive model of care known to man. That which has no boundaries or limitations. Good internists define that boundary for which to work with.
What you seem to be saying is that internists have abandoned their field for highly lucrative procedural fields and therefor the solution is to allow NPs and to take over their role.
This is so completely backwards on so many levels, it's frightening to suggest that the solution to better care is to have providers who have a lower threshold to seek subspecialists who have entered the field because of the lucrative procedures. What NPs cost less on the front end, they loose exponentially on the back end, assuming you believe they have a lower threshold to refer than internists (at least good ones).
The solution is not to replace internists with NPs who have a lower threshold for referral. The solution is a model where fewer referrals are made. Where primary care is not viewed as a front line access to care, but rather the care, in its entirety. Until internists are paid for their time to take care of complicated patients, they themselves have become nothing more than triage artists farming out their patients in a volume mill of economic survival. And in fact bring little value to their role.
As for your assertion that subspecialties are more challenging. Hardly. Here's my experience with community based "more challenging" cases. If a case is really hard or time consuming, they get referred to the academic mecca where the "real experts" in the field get to tackle the latest and greatest case of reallyhardandtimconsumingitis. It is a rare subspecialist in Happy's Hospital who thrives on the interesting case. Rather the bread and butter pays the bills. And the bread and butter procedures pay for thrills.
Your entire thesis as to the appropriate role of "primary care" provider is why those two words need to be abolished from any association with internists and comprehensive care. Primary care is not the doorway to care. It is the care.



I agree in general. The major problem with the PhD's comment is his assumptions on the role of primary care. Let's face it - many educated and uneducated folks don't know what we do. It's so simple, and yet so hard to explain, but I think you've made a good attempt. It is NOT to triage - so many FP's and internists seem to be delegating to this point. I always try to refer a patient to a specialist with something specific in mind that only they can do - not just "I don't want to deal with this". But many DO just triage, and these docs are seen by those who don't know any better and assume we're all trained that way.
ReplyDeleteHappy, this is why I read your blog.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm really confused!!!
ReplyDeleteI am a Rural FP who does outpt care, follow my pts in the hospital, do ICU, do drips, vents, etc. The day I see them in the office wearing jeans am I a primary care provider? Then when I do a direct admit on that patient, am I supposed to put on my secondary care provider letter sweater and go see my pt on med surg? And then in the middle of the night when they crash do I run back in with my tertiary care provider leotards and cape on and put them on the vent and a dopamine drip?
Please help...this is all too confusing for a simple rural doc to know.
I think I've been wearing the entirely the wrong clothes for the last 10 years, and I'm having a bit of an identity crisis.
Back in the days of giants (last millenium) my chairman used to say:
ReplyDelete"you can be the nicest guy in the hospital, but if you're not competant no one will want to let you see their patients. If your a very competant jerk, you'll have a job. A compasionate competant doctor will get the most referall sent to him."
The best doc for you is the one who can treat what you have.
"I take care of many patients from start to finish with no subspecialist consultation."
ReplyDeleteYou do??? So they just come up to you in the Dr's lounge and say hey happy please put me in the hospital and take care of me. NO, they go see their PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN first and if he decides to throw you a bone he allows you to admit his PT. So you don't start anything PCP's and ED physicians do.
"What you seem to be saying is that internists have abandoned their field for highly lucrative procedural fields and therefor the solution is to allow NPs and to take over their role."
Yep I think thats what he is saying and, he is correct.
"The solution is not to replace internists with NPs who have a lower threshold for referral"
OK genius so where are you going to get the internists to replace the midlevels then?
"internists...themselves have become nothing more than triage artists farming out their patients in a volume mill of economic survival. And in fact bring little value to their role."
I agree completely and most people smart enough to graduate from med school see that too. That would be why the ones that graduate in the upper 3/4 of their class do not become internists. I guess the bottom 1/4 don't really have a choice.
anonymous 1253:
ReplyDeleteouch.
those are harsh comments.
I am a family physician who graduated in the top 10 percent of his class. I don't think I'm stupid, but I am probably an idiot. The truth is that primary care does suck, for many reasons. Happy is absolutely right; hospitalists would not exist if primary care has not been so consistently undermined and undervalued.
And everyone is to blame: medicare, medicaid, rvu committees, insurance companies, specialists, medical schools and, yes, even us poor shleps in the trenches. But mostly, I blame patients: the same ones who want access to me 24/7 but never want to pay a copay, or expect a phone call from me for free just to demand to go right to a specialist.
All attempts at healthcare reform are doomed to fail unless the people are willing to change, and unfortunately, I do not think they are.
Here's another Family Doc-- #2 in my class, PhD in Public Health.
ReplyDeleteMy roommate from med school graduated in the "bottom 1/4" and is now a Dermatologist--think he brought in close to 2 mill last year.
Guess he didn't have a choice, he couldn't do primary care--not smart enough.
Here's another Family Doc-- #2 in my class, PhD in Public Health.
ReplyDeleteMy roommate from med school graduated in the "bottom 1/4" and is now a Dermatologist--think he brought in close to 2 mill last year.
Guess he didn't have a choice, he couldn't do primary care--not smart enough.
I tell ya, Happy, your posts really get me to thinking. I have to read them three times each: (a) the first time I start to get riled, (b) the second time I see the message behind the inflammatory wording and (c) the third time I go to the comments.
ReplyDeleteYou should get three hits for every time I visit : )
So I have two comments/observations:
1.
"internists...themselves have become nothing more than triage artists farming out their patients in a volume mill of economic survival. And in fact bring little value to their role."
Not my internist. About the only thing he doesn't do is colonoscopies. He'd do GYN exams, but I prefer to see my GYN doc for those (my choice, not a referral). He's probably in his 50s, so it's not like he went to med school in the dark ages.
And something occurred to me. Isn't "hospitalist" a specialty? I remember when the term did not exist and I was thrilled when it became a wide-spread specialty because I think inpatients are well served by them!
But...no hospitalist I've known or worked with ever had a practice outside the hospital - every patient they have cared for has been "referred" to them, either from the internist/FP/GP/pediatrician or the ER doc. I only mention this because I think of primary care as preventative/palliative care that occurs outside the hospital with a regular clinic/provider (my definition). Ergo, you, as a hospitalist, are a specialist that patients are referred to.
Lastly, I would think that the ability to know when one is out of one's league would be a benefit to any health care provider, be they MD/PA/NP.
Happy,
ReplyDeleteyou know that I love you man, and I do have nothing but massive respect for ya, but currently, the ACP is predicting, wait for it....
A shortage of internists of approximately 35,000 to 45,000 by the year 2025....that's only 16 years away.
Doesn't matter how you slice it, doesn't matter at this point if you dramatically increase CMS reimbursements for cognitive services. We have the LARGEST generation in the history of our country ready to retire. There will simply not be enough physicians. And to be honest, you don't need to see a physician for everything.
At Mayo Clinic, our CEO is Dr Cortese, who is a board certified pulmonologist who practiced up until he became CEO. He has advocated for a greater role of PA's and NP's, with some limitations. He has a saying that he uses frequently in his speeches.
"patients need the right provider for the right condition, at the right place, in the right time, and that is not always, nor can it always be a physician".
It's me again. Glad you found my comment worthy of such a vitriolic attack. Nice attempt at diverting attention from the point, by the way. If you truly believe that the words "primary care" should be abandoned, perhaps you should avoid repeatedly invoking them, and find yourself another mantra to intone.
ReplyDeleteContrary to popular opinion, I do have a fairly good grasp of what you do. I will therefore repeat that you are not a primary care physician. Perhaps what you mean to say is that much of what you do can or should be done by a primary care physician. That may or may not be true, but it does not change the facts of the matter.
You're a hospitalist. You practice in a hospital. All your patients are inpatients.
All my experience with hospitals indicates that they are exactly unlike hotels. They are an order of magnitude more expensive, for starters. And for that money: the beds are less comfortable; you are often forced to share a room with someone (who may or may not be screaming all night long); the food is usually terrible; and if you want to enjoy the luxury of phone or TV (which is usually small and suffers from an appalling dearth of channels), you must pay extra. Most importantly, however, one may not simply walk up to the desk and check in. One must be admitted through channels, which may mean the ER, or a physician with admitting privileges, or a referral from one of those back-woods NPs who "can't handle" a real patient. In any case, one must pass through some other layer of the medical system before one is ever examined or treated by a hospitalist. Therefore, without any ambiguity, you are not providing primary care. Sorry to disappoint you.
I will not comment on any of the other ways you misunderstood, or chose to misconstrue, my previous comments. I'm sure I've already given you enough to rant against.
One point worth making-How do you know NPs and PAs will want to go in primary care in large number? They may avoid or give up on it for the same reason the MDs do.Specialty clinics are filled with PAs as are hospital ward where they see pts for specialist routinely. The primary care numbers just are not going to be there in the near future as mentioned above. I predict the primary care offices that remain will be more frantic and stressed and less appealing - to MDs, PAs, and NPS.
ReplyDeleteReally, this is annoying. You-all are just talking at cross-purposes because your definitions of primary care are different. I don't know how "primary" is defined for medical students, but in nursing school, we get clear definitions called primary, secondary, and tertiary prevention/care.
ReplyDeleteFor the public health context, these are outlined clearly here, in this textbook. As you can see, the definition of primary care as used by nurses and probably this PhD (who is married to a nurse--duh!) involves prevention. When nurses say MLPs can provide primary care, they mean you don't have to be a doctor to tell someone their diet is poor, they need exercise, and they should stop smoking. However, even by the nursing definitions of care, MDs and MLPs don't engage in primary care, but mostly secondary care.
Just decide on your definitions, people.