Saturday, January 31, 2009

Ignorance Is Bliss

From the comments section comes this juicy tidbit:

Blogger AAA said...



I agree with the notion that MDs are no longer needed in primary care settings. Physician Assistants or Nurse Practitioners could do this job as well or in many cases better than MDs. Increase the number of Nurse Practitioner Programs and PA programs and decrease medical schools to a handfull number. That would solve our escalating cost in health care, and provide patients with a higher quality of clinical and caring care.




When taken to AAA's blog,  Botanical Medicine Posts...

It's an interesting theory.  A theory filled with holes.

  1. Physicians are focused more on how to handle filling for insurance, avoiding law suits for malpractice, and how to see as many patients in a 10-hour shift than really caring for their patients.---The assertion here is that somehow nurse practitioners would be immune to these forces.  AAA, how would a nurse practitioners run their office without filing for insurance.  How would they avoid lawsuits.  And how would they pay their bills without seeing as many  patients as possible?  If there is a magic NP business model that somehow is able to evade all these problematic issues of outpatient comprehensive care, I would certainly love to see it.   
  2. A new breed of clinicians is being surfaced in USA where Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants are as competent in disease management as any physician.--Do you believe that the medical trained boards of internal medicine, family medicine and pediatrics are therefore unnecessary?  
  3. They are willing to spend more time with patients without worrying about managing a business.-How is it that nurse practitioners don't have to worry about managing their business.  Is there a nurse practitioner fund that will bail them out when their business bankrupts from not seeing enough patients.  How is that many comprehensive care doctors need to see 30 patients a day to earn the same amount as many salaried nurse practitioners these days.  Is there some magic money tree that will pay the NPs bills?
  4. Perhaps the model for health care in the immediate future is clinics staffed with NPs and PAs and one physician who is just hired to manage the clinic, but not to see patients.-What?  Did the really expensive physician just become the business manager?  That seems like the worst business model ever.
  5. This will save cost and gradually eliminate the health insurance system. Patients want more caring clinicians and less business like providers-Saving cost?  Perhaps.  Unfortunately, the cost of the comprehensive care physician in the grand scheme of the 2.3 trillion dollar health care business is minuscule.  If you think trading out NPs for MDs will 'save cost', you fail to understand the grand scheme of expenditures.  What about the other 2.25 trillion dollars in expenditures not related to the fees of comprehensive care doctors.  It's easy to write about the front end cost savings.  It's easier to ignore the back door expenses of this model.  You can't be a caring provider if your office goes bankrupt.
I am amazed, really amazed at the lack of knowledge displayed by those in the lay public when it comes to the realities of providing care to patients.  This  botanical medicine person appears to live in some sort of economic black hole where the rules of revenue and overhead expenses only apply to some populations but not others.  To believe that a NP could operate a clinic independent of the financial and legal concerns that is currently crushing outpatient comprehensive care physicians, is to show a total lack of understanding or desire to education oneself on the process.
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6 Outbursts:

  1. Glad to see the puppies again.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Physicians need to have a stronger voice in health policy decision-making. Unfortunately, misunderstandings like this are more common than you realize, even among "experts" in healthcare reform.

    I once heard a former HHS secretary respond this way to a person who asked, "Even if we get 'health insurance for all' how will we handle their needs with our limited number of primary care physicians?"

    HHS Secretary: "We'll have nurses pick up the slack."

    Yeah, right...

    ReplyDelete
  3. As a patient who actually had a PA not follow my specialists specific instructions when I was in the ER - thus causing a longer recovery time - I do not think that such should be left unsupervised.

    By the same token, GPs often don't refer to specialists soon enough. I would be loathe to add yet another layer of care between patients and the right care when a specialist is needed.

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  4. MLO, I am sorry for your experience with PA's. I agree that we need to be under the supervision of an MD, as DO ALL PA's. I am not an MD, and while I can function with a HIGH level of autonomy, I cannot function with complete autonomy. PA's have never expressed a desire for completely independent practice, that would be an NP thing.

    Happy, my challenge, and/or offer to you still stands!

    ReplyDelete
  5. As a medical student, I was really offended by AAA's post and strongly agree with many of the opinions you have voiced about the role of NPs/PAs. The majority of my close friends are RNs and NPs and suffice to say, in my 2.5 years as a med student, I've learned far more than they have so far. Traditional RN training does not delve into teaching the full pathophysiology of most diseases. My best friend, an RN for 8 years, had no clue what I was talking about when I brought Type 1 DM as an autoimmune disease thought to be mediated by molecular mimicry and T-cells. That knowledge is important in being able to address the disease. I am not denying the crucial role of NPs/PAs in the primary care setting but to say that they could replace the role of physicians entirely is absurd and so lacking of full understanding of how the training differs. If I were a patient given the choice between someone with 1000s of hours of training vs. someone with 100000s of hours, the choice would be easy. I think what people are forgetting to keep in mind is that an NP or PA who has been practicing for 15 years is absolutely more skilled than an intern but upon completion of residency, that no longer applies.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Those money grubbing docs are the problem. Heartless assholes too, NO doc cares about his/her patients like an NP can, they are genetically incapable!!! And they certainly aren't any smarter...I mean, if they were so smart, they would have picked a different career, one that would pay more money with less training and have a better lifestyle....oh, wait...

    The thing that really bugs me is how NPs and the general public so often claim that their knowledge base is the same as an MD, somehow, magically, with half as many years of training (and a fraction of the number of hours/patients if you want to look at the workload during that training.) The problem is, you don't know what you don't know--how could you?--and John Q Public DEFINITELY doesn't realize how deficient your knowledge base is, and 95% of the time he's presenting with something that looks simple and is simple, so from his perspective you are solid. But 4% of the time he's got something that looks simple but isn't--you miss it because all you know is simple stuff, hopefully it doesn't kill the guy. And 1% of the time its obviously not simple, so you refer him on and pat yourself on the back for your great clinical judgment, as good as any uncompassionate, money-grubbing primary care MD!

    Anyway, obviously my percentages are fabrications, but my point stands.

    ReplyDelete

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