That's how much it costs to go from a green behind the ears, beer drinking college student to a graduated doctor at Stanford University.
Almost $400,000 to become a doctor. For 4 years of medical school
And you wonder why nobody is going into comprehensive care.
Disguisting.
Almost $400,000 to become a doctor. For 4 years of medical school
And you wonder why nobody is going into comprehensive care.
Disguisting.
It's astounding that anyone wants to go to med school given that crushing debt load. IMHO (I am not a doctor and do not play one on TV) the current reimbursement system, based mainly on the numbers and types of procedures a physician performs, is in dire need of an overhaul
ReplyDeletea decade ago when I interviewed at the only public school in my state I was asked where else I applied. I said nowhere, I could not afford to go to a private medical school given the debt loads I would have to carry. That ended the interview.
ReplyDeleteThe school offered the opportunity to get feedback on your application and interview, and the feedback I received was that the committee had felt I was insufficiently interested in medicine, that there were other ways for me to achieve my goals and serve society (something along those lines). I thought about it, and didn't disagree.
I ended up pursuing my MBA and am working in a position that uses my science background and business skills. The work is challenging and meaningful and I don't have a ton of debt.
I don't regret my decision. I do on occasion think it would have been fun and that I would have enjoyed a medical career, but I don't think I would have enjoyed it anymore than what I am currently doing, and without the stress of having a quarter million dollars in loans.
Even at the 15 year repayment plan, that only adds up to $38,400/year. Since there is no reason to pay it off that fast, note that the 30 year time frame sums to $26,400/year.
ReplyDeleteAt a starting salary of $120,000/year, that would still leave more than $80,000/year if repaying as fast as possible (granted, not accounting for the income tax differential). That corresponds to the 85th percentile of US individual income.
To claim that it is impossible to live at the 85th percentile of wages seems well beyond absurd.
Now, maybe you feel that it's not worth the sacrifice to become a doctor for that salary, and that may be true, but I grow tired of people saying that they can't afford to do primary care. Scientists train longer for less income.
I should also point out that Stanford has extremely generous financial aid and I don't believe that anyone pays anything close to $400k to attend there.
I said I wasn't accounting for taxes. $45,000 in take home pay corresponds to a gross salary of $60k, which is just above the 75th percentile for personal income in the US. Again, maybe not worth it for many people* but clearly not "impossible."
ReplyDelete*But of course medical training isn't really that bad, we just like to complain about it, right?
Funny how Jordan ignores some of the quoted expenses including health insurance. That's not even mentioning malpractice insurance. The naivete is pretty funny.
ReplyDelete1. Medical salaries are typically quoted after business expenses are taken out, including malpractice.
ReplyDelete2. As I said before, the $40k/year figure for loans is silly because there is no reason to pay them off that quickly. I will concede that I don't know if the salary figure I quoted includes health insurance, but these two issues cancel out.
3. The $120k salary I used was the lowest I've ever heard of, and most sources are closer to $150.
4. $400k is an extraordinary figure for med school debt. Stanford's typical debt load should be closer to $100k. I'll be finishing with about $250k, which is higher than average but not uncommon.
5. I'm not saying that primary care doctors get paid enough or that money isn't a good reason to avoid those specialties. I'm just asking for more precise use of language. It is not "impossible" for any US medical school graduate that I know of to go into primary care because he or she cannot afford to pay back loans. Even in the very extreme scenario we've been discussing, our hypothetical physician will still be at the 75th %ile of US personal income.
6. I agree that the current balance of salaries is inappropriate. Primary care physicians (and psychiatrists) ought to make more and proceduralists probably ought to make a bit less.
7. I also agree that the cost of medical education is way too high.
Jordan, medical salaries are NOT generally after malpractice. It doesn't get paid out of thin air. Your ignorance of the very basics of the business of medicine calls into question everything else you write.
ReplyDeleteNo, malpractice isn't paid out of thin air. It's paid out of gross collections. However, physician salary surveys that I've seen are always post-expenses. Otherwise the salaries couldn't be compared between states or specialties. For example, see:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm
As for my credibility, everything I've said is easily verifiable. You can agree or not, but I'm not asking anyone to just take what I say on faith.
Right, because malpractice premiums are the same in every area, right?
ReplyDeleteWhen you stop dealing in the theoretical and enter the real world where real numbers actually happen, check back. Your perspective will have no doubt changed. The bottom line is that you're not going to have physicians continue to accept that level of net compensation given the hours invested weekly, the years invested in education and training, and the amount of liability you incur on a daily basis. Welcome to the real world.
Point taken, Happy, and it's a valid one, but before you besmirch a private medical school that's actually more responsible with its resources than most: the average Stanford debt for class of 2008 on graduating was $86K among financial aid students, less than the national average for even PUBLIC schools. The $400K figure is also completely wrong: med students attend 13 quarters at SMS to graduate, so even a student paying full freight (and no one does unless their family is very wekalthy) would theoreticlly incur $286K including a generous living expense, nowhere close to the $400K you cite.
ReplyDeleteHi Dr. Jordan,
ReplyDeleteDon't let them get you down! You are still the best on the 'net for numerous reasons, which people would learn, if only they would visit your blog. It's more than the $$$$$$$....
hearts, tracy
oops, wrong Jordan...anyhow, visit Jordan-In my Humble Opinion
ReplyDeletesorry 'bout that, Dr. Jordan!